Before There Are Crimes: Childhood Trauma And Juvenile Justice | With Wendy Smith

WEBVTT

00:00.031 --> 00:19.622
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the biggest misunderstandings that I think that we have to contend with in the world that we live in is that we have this assumption that when we see people who have committed crime, that they are somehow a bad person, that they are awful some or somehow have the worst intentions for the world behind them.

00:20.302 --> 00:24.925
[SPEAKER_01]: When in reality, the question we should be really asking ourselves is, well, how did they get there?

00:25.737 --> 00:46.285
[SPEAKER_01]: As someone who has multiple family members in prison, who's been in handcuffs more times than I can count, and who as you know come from other most traumatic childhoods, maybe ever, I've always been curious about this question myself, and I'm really excited to explore this with today's guest the author of before there are crimes, the amazing Wendy Smith.

00:46.945 --> 00:48.806
[SPEAKER_01]: Wendy, thank you so much for being here today.

00:49.766 --> 00:51.427
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for having me.

00:52.933 --> 00:55.156
[SPEAKER_01]: This is very near and dear to my heart.

00:55.256 --> 01:02.265
[SPEAKER_01]: You and I had a conversation about a month ago about some of the things that we wanted to get into in today's conversation.

01:02.505 --> 01:08.192
[SPEAKER_01]: But for those listening, why should they spend their time with us today and listen to what we're going to talk?

01:09.438 --> 01:34.300
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think you actually preview that in the comments you just made about how many misconceptions there are about people who commit crimes, especially kids who commit crimes, because I think often people assume that if you're engaged in criminal activity at a young age, there's

01:36.942 --> 01:55.868
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it used to be thought of as the bad seed or something like that, but I think what people don't understand is the question of what helps the person or leads a person to arrive at a moment where they make this kind of choice.

01:56.949 --> 02:23.024
[SPEAKER_00]: And I, my purpose in talking with former juvenile offenders, which I did to write this book and forgetting the book out there, and their voices out there, was really to help people understand the kinds of things that lead kids to commit crimes, especially violent crimes, and that there's always a story behind

02:24.736 --> 02:25.759
[SPEAKER_00]: a juvenile crime.

02:25.799 --> 02:27.845
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't happen for no reason.

02:29.998 --> 02:45.105
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that I took away as I went through this book was this is part research and part just unbelievable storytelling because you gave people the ability to actually give their side.

02:45.706 --> 02:48.527
[SPEAKER_01]: And what honestly, in my opinion, felt very unbiased.

02:48.667 --> 02:51.829
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes you read these things, you know, like, man, you have an agenda here.

02:52.469 --> 02:56.411
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that you don't have an agenda, but I think your agenda came from the right place.

02:57.091 --> 02:57.872
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious.

02:58.672 --> 03:03.096
[SPEAKER_01]: Why have you dedicated so much of your time and your life to this subject matter?

03:03.156 --> 03:04.237
[SPEAKER_01]: Why is it so important?

03:05.483 --> 03:33.813
[SPEAKER_00]: So really the subject matter that is important to me and I think it's the same subject matter that's important to you is the effects of traumatic childhoods and for many years in my career I was involved in working with people who emerged from the foster care system who are often the same kids as those in the juvenile justice system, but basically the underlying

03:34.973 --> 03:47.910
[SPEAKER_00]: interest of mine has to do with what happens in your childhood that you can't or you haven't been able to digest, understand, move on from.

03:49.563 --> 04:06.132
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, you know, I had something like that in my own childhood, which I think underlies my life long interest in, you know, trying to bring greater understanding to how vulnerable children are.

04:08.035 --> 04:23.581
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's, it's so interesting when especially you look at the data around foster care and foster systems and unhealthy children and then crime and revisit or recidivism rates, it's how, how can we as a society to continue to ignore this?

04:24.321 --> 04:29.944
[SPEAKER_01]: And, and so I'm wondering, let's rewind for a minute because I want to start kind of in the beginning of this.

04:29.964 --> 04:30.504
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

04:31.515 --> 04:43.780
[SPEAKER_01]: What is the biggest misconception and misunderstanding that you think people have when it comes to people who are incarcerated or children who commit violent crimes?

04:44.300 --> 04:52.043
[SPEAKER_01]: What was the thing that, as you did this research, and you have these conversations, even for yourself, was just like a aham moment?

04:54.664 --> 04:57.285
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the aham moment was

04:58.640 --> 05:18.959
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, after interviewing, I interviewed 29 people, only 20 of whom stories I could include in the book, but I think my biggest takeaway was how no one in that group had had what most people would consider happy childhood.

05:21.098 --> 05:25.539
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, there were multiple contributors to that.

05:25.559 --> 05:29.961
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, a lot of it had to do with interpersonal trauma.

05:30.741 --> 05:39.504
[SPEAKER_00]: But it was also things you've just mentioned, like, you know, disadvantaged neighborhoods, seeing violence every day when you walk down the street.

05:40.184 --> 05:44.245
[SPEAKER_00]: The bread of availability of drugs are guns.

05:45.246 --> 05:46.126
[SPEAKER_00]: See, you know,

05:47.219 --> 05:49.022
[SPEAKER_00]: insecurity about food.

05:49.102 --> 05:54.529
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I spoke to people who just didn't have enough to eat when they were kids.

05:55.130 --> 06:02.079
[SPEAKER_00]: And how that makes you feel not only physiologically, but about your value as a person.

06:04.250 --> 06:05.230
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's so true.

06:05.370 --> 06:21.795
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was one of those kids and it was interesting because in childhood, I generally excelled in school, especially around language arts and creative writing, which, you know, fast forward, all the years later, written for books and I write blogs constantly.

06:22.891 --> 06:25.852
[SPEAKER_01]: But it was the other areas of school where I would struggle.

06:25.912 --> 06:29.252
[SPEAKER_01]: And so because they'd come natural, it could never focus around them.

06:29.693 --> 06:31.073
[SPEAKER_01]: But I was in a violent home.

06:31.613 --> 06:39.295
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was in a home that was very financially insecure, where we did not have money to pay for the electricity or the heat.

06:39.815 --> 06:44.776
[SPEAKER_01]: And we would stay warm and winter time by sleeping in the kitchen with the oven door open.

06:44.916 --> 06:46.376
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is the 90s.

06:46.416 --> 06:48.657
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not like the 50s, right?

06:49.397 --> 06:52.318
[SPEAKER_01]: And we were wildly food insecure.

06:52.438 --> 06:58.981
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I can tell you probably still food from school, 100 times, 200 times, five.

06:59.001 --> 06:59.662
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know.

07:00.022 --> 07:03.644
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just a natural part of the experience.

07:03.684 --> 07:11.287
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember times, even getting in trouble, we used to have these, for whatever reason, the greatest chicken sandwich of all time happened to be in my high school.

07:11.387 --> 07:12.267
[SPEAKER_01]: I do not know why.

07:13.688 --> 07:19.930
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would just pocket a couple and I remember a couple of times getting caught and you would get in so much trouble.

07:20.550 --> 07:23.991
[SPEAKER_01]: And the question was never, why is this child stilling food?

07:25.211 --> 07:27.372
[SPEAKER_01]: It was always like, why is this kid a bad kid?

07:27.412 --> 07:33.713
[SPEAKER_01]: And then as I got older, you know, we don't have to get in all of my story because I think the audience knows it pretty well at this point.

07:33.793 --> 07:39.095
[SPEAKER_01]: But at the time I was at 26, I had to complete an utter breakdown, just everything around me.

07:39.875 --> 08:04.461
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had gotten lucky because I did not go to prison even though I had been in trouble and expelled from school for selling drugs and I did not get murdered like a couple of my best friends had been and I wasn't in prison like so many of my family members even to this day are but by 26 I had just sabotaged everything around me everything was a complete nightmare and a complete disaster and you kind of look back on it you go yeah could

08:06.562 --> 08:11.767
[SPEAKER_01]: So how do we, how do we even begin to have this conversation in a way that's practical?

08:11.987 --> 08:19.895
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think for whatever reason, I got very lucky, which led me to this moment to be able to have these kind of conversations.

08:20.476 --> 08:24.279
[SPEAKER_01]: And I look at my friends, I look at some family members, I'm like, they did not.

08:25.420 --> 08:47.098
[SPEAKER_01]: Why do some people end up going my route, but the majority, and I say this just because of my own experience, end up going the other route and end up dead or in jail or lack prosperity in ways that is just so detrimental to their human experience, is there a differentiator like why do you see in this research?

08:48.238 --> 08:59.322
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm going to answer that question, but before I do, there are a couple of things that you brought up that I really also want to respond to because they're so important.

09:00.162 --> 09:14.568
[SPEAKER_00]: One of them is how you are in school, you were a good student, and it was surprising to me how many of the people I spoke with had been very promising students early in their

09:18.367 --> 09:18.627
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

09:19.748 --> 09:22.070
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, they didn't go that way for them.

09:22.770 --> 09:30.817
[SPEAKER_00]: That didn't amount to much often because their families couldn't and didn't pay attention to that.

09:31.277 --> 09:37.162
[SPEAKER_00]: They were too preoccupied with either making ends meet or drug addiction or

09:38.293 --> 09:45.880
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, the violence in their own lives, so partly a withered in a way out of in attention.

09:46.420 --> 09:54.187
[SPEAKER_00]: But the other part of what you were talking about about stealing at school and it not being taken up.

09:55.388 --> 10:13.907
[SPEAKER_00]: as a signal that something was happening in your life that needed somebody to pay attention is also one of the main messages I hope people will take from these stories is that schools, that's where everybody is.

10:15.057 --> 10:21.341
[SPEAKER_00]: there could be so much more intervention before crime at school.

10:22.001 --> 10:41.114
[SPEAKER_00]: If kids were showed signs of a problem, stealing, fights, dropping their grades, being true, and whatever it'd miss, even in class, instead of expeling or suspending them, if people took them aside and said, what's happening?

10:41.154 --> 10:42.655
[SPEAKER_00]: What's happening at your house?

10:43.647 --> 10:44.708
[SPEAKER_00]: How are you feeling?

10:45.488 --> 10:50.492
[SPEAKER_00]: I think many of the people I spoke with have there been someone like that.

10:51.132 --> 10:52.954
[SPEAKER_00]: It could have been life changing.

10:53.754 --> 10:55.916
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the answer to your last question.

10:56.496 --> 11:10.827
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say that in maybe not all cases, but many cases, what helps someone go a different way is about some human relationship or interaction.

11:12.687 --> 11:15.288
[SPEAKER_00]: Somebody responds to them in a different way.

11:16.969 --> 11:18.889
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if that's what happened to you.

11:20.070 --> 11:26.232
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think that's often what helps somebody begin to turn a corner.

11:27.454 --> 11:30.756
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that I agree with everything you just said.

11:30.796 --> 11:34.058
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think what happened for me and I've mentioned many times on this show.

11:34.098 --> 11:44.005
[SPEAKER_01]: I did an amazing teacher who effectively might, but this was my senior year of high school and at that point to be honest with you, I was already too far gone.

11:44.445 --> 11:46.887
[SPEAKER_01]: I had straight F's, I was getting in fights.

11:47.427 --> 11:51.309
[SPEAKER_01]: dozens of times the school year had already got kicked out of one high school.

11:51.389 --> 11:55.410
[SPEAKER_01]: I was in a last chance program, got kicked out of last chance program.

11:55.570 --> 12:04.494
[SPEAKER_01]: I was on the last last chance program and I was sitting with him in his classroom and he looks at me and goes, it's very evident that you're not supposed to be here.

12:05.034 --> 12:08.376
[SPEAKER_01]: You just need to find a way to make it through the next couple of years.

12:09.377 --> 12:17.224
[SPEAKER_01]: And that one conversation was so pivotal because it was the first time that anyone had ever seen me for where I was.

12:17.244 --> 12:25.091
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, that's part of why I mentored and do what I do to try to help where I can because sometimes it's just about being seen.

12:25.111 --> 12:27.454
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the hard part, you,

12:28.134 --> 12:45.921
[SPEAKER_01]: is, well, even if there is that intervention, you still have reality because at 16, 17, 18 years old, I was living with my grandmother who had fallen into a coma and she was in the hospital and effectively my next youngest brother and I were just trying to survive.

12:46.641 --> 12:51.362
[SPEAKER_01]: groundging changed to by pizza begging for money at the store to turn on the light.

12:51.382 --> 12:52.243
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like it was crazy.

12:52.283 --> 12:54.063
[SPEAKER_01]: Like kids should not be in this environment.

12:54.503 --> 12:57.464
[SPEAKER_01]: And there was this big expectation like go as an athlete.

12:57.484 --> 13:01.345
[SPEAKER_01]: So I played sports and it was also go be successful in school.

13:01.725 --> 13:11.008
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when you know I went from this place of doing really well as a child, even though I was in those circumstances, to by the time I'm high school, I'm like, I could care less.

13:12.108 --> 13:19.753
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that one of the things that happens is we forget compassion, and you see these children, who are children.

13:20.014 --> 13:20.414
[SPEAKER_01]: It's funny.

13:20.434 --> 13:21.715
[SPEAKER_01]: I was think about this the other day.

13:21.735 --> 13:26.498
[SPEAKER_01]: At like 18, I was the dumbest person on planet earth.

13:27.138 --> 13:32.942
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I know, I'm 40, and I'm going to be saying that in 20 years, you know?

13:33.402 --> 13:35.124
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think to myself, like,

13:36.135 --> 13:37.497
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it lack of compassion?

13:37.737 --> 13:39.639
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it lack of humanity?

13:39.940 --> 13:42.943
[SPEAKER_01]: Have we completely lost our way as community?

13:42.963 --> 13:46.407
[SPEAKER_01]: Because kids, my community, as a kid, I joined again.

13:46.527 --> 13:51.653
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm sure many of the kids did that you met as adults and had these conversations with.

13:52.924 --> 13:56.227
[SPEAKER_01]: What is, what's our responsibility for a social aspect?

13:56.287 --> 13:57.909
[SPEAKER_01]: Like how do we curb this?

13:58.770 --> 14:00.391
[SPEAKER_01]: What are the mistakes that we're making?

14:00.451 --> 14:03.594
[SPEAKER_01]: What did you see that these people really needed?

14:03.614 --> 14:08.718
[SPEAKER_01]: That could have helped avert, avert, I should say, this path for them.

14:09.179 --> 14:12.622
[SPEAKER_01]: Even if they had intervention, sometimes there's no compassion on the backside of that.

14:14.323 --> 14:22.726
[SPEAKER_00]: Or sometimes it's not enough for the other forces in their lives are too powerful.

14:23.486 --> 14:35.450
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's got a complicated question because there are so many levels to that add up to our paths.

14:36.150 --> 14:41.252
[SPEAKER_00]: So a kid who has experienced what's their physical abuse

14:44.033 --> 14:48.561
[SPEAKER_00]: exposed to violence, frightening violence on the street or in their home.

14:49.522 --> 14:56.113
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we have to first recognize that that has power for the effects on brain development.

14:56.772 --> 15:10.562
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's not, it has effects on psychological development and how you see the world, how you see your place in it, how you see your relations with others, are how are they going to treat you?

15:11.162 --> 15:18.988
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where all this, you know, we learn all that basically in our first, but five to ten years on Earth.

15:19.848 --> 15:24.032
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we aren't children taking everything that happens.

15:24.713 --> 15:31.799
[SPEAKER_00]: They take and what's said to them, the way it's said to them, they, you know, it doesn't just slough off.

15:31.939 --> 15:37.224
[SPEAKER_00]: You know that from your own experience, it all goes in.

15:37.244 --> 15:40.527
[SPEAKER_00]: And in one way or another, you're carrying it.

15:41.230 --> 15:49.791
[SPEAKER_00]: until you have the opportunity, which, as you say, you try to provide for some people to unburden yourself.

15:50.492 --> 16:05.134
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think interventions have to be trauma informed, they have to be early in lights, schools have to be much more compassionate, receptive, treating their students as

16:10.772 --> 16:14.214
[SPEAKER_00]: because that's where they are and that's where the opportunity is.

16:14.834 --> 16:28.723
[SPEAKER_00]: I personally think every new parent should get a visit from a visiting nurse who can take a look at the baby, take a look at the people, see if they're the financial.

16:29.655 --> 16:35.478
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, trouble is their housing stable, how are they doing as people themselves?

16:36.098 --> 16:39.660
[SPEAKER_00]: And what's this baby's life gonna begin as?

16:40.421 --> 16:56.169
[SPEAKER_00]: I think if our society invested in that kind of really early intervention in children's lives, we'd be saving a lot of later psychological and social and economic costs.

16:58.152 --> 17:10.101
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's the surround and then a lot of new parents are flailing, you know, maybe they were abused, maybe they never dealt with their trauma.

17:13.524 --> 17:21.130
[SPEAKER_01]: As you were saying that a thought came to mind, I've never asked anyone this question, and you know, we've had a range of experts on this show over the years, but

17:22.535 --> 17:37.103
[SPEAKER_01]: When you were sitting and hearing some of these stories and we think about the the path right because if you go from here's the foster system layer in a scores what is happening is there.

17:38.215 --> 17:41.417
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a tough question to ask to never even try to frame it before.

17:42.197 --> 17:44.918
[SPEAKER_01]: But I look at the research around ACE, for instance.

17:44.958 --> 17:46.579
[SPEAKER_01]: The adverse childhood experiences.

17:46.619 --> 17:48.880
[SPEAKER_01]: And they have these series of these 10 questions.

17:49.380 --> 17:57.344
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, obviously, the more answers you have yes to these 10 questions, the more likely HUD you're going to have these long-term detrimental ramifications.

17:57.424 --> 17:59.766
[SPEAKER_01]: Health outcomes, prison, whatever that might be.

18:00.866 --> 18:11.531
[SPEAKER_01]: as a person that has a score of 10, discovering that information and that data, Wendy, literally is the most singular life-changing thing that I've ever discovered.

18:12.112 --> 18:18.014
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I finally understood why, at the time, at 30 years old, while over a decade ago, I was like, why am I crazy?

18:18.034 --> 18:19.815
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, you're not crazy.

18:19.835 --> 18:22.817
[SPEAKER_01]: You just had a really, really, really bad childhood.

18:23.557 --> 18:24.658
[SPEAKER_01]: So what do you do with that?

18:24.978 --> 18:32.701
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm curious as you were in these situations and environments and having these conversations and just watching the path.

18:32.761 --> 18:36.622
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, God, I'm sure at times it must have felt completely helpless to you.

18:37.203 --> 18:41.925
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm wondering when it comes to something like the ACE research,

18:42.845 --> 18:51.990
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you find that there was anything indicative about maybe one or two predominant experiences that would lead down this path to incarceration?

18:52.591 --> 19:00.915
[SPEAKER_01]: My mind kind of immediately goes to sexual abuse, but I'm wondering if that's true or if you might have seen something different?

19:01.576 --> 19:03.677
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's definitely one.

19:03.917 --> 19:06.699
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you had a chance in my book at the end of it.

19:12.837 --> 19:18.586
[SPEAKER_00]: And the one, the ace as I would add to the original list of 10.

19:19.488 --> 19:23.313
[SPEAKER_00]: But in terms of, you know, for example, one,

19:26.658 --> 19:47.151
[SPEAKER_00]: event in a child's life that I think is extremely powerful and there were people I interviewed who had this experience and not too many others and they still were deeply traumatized and affected was the death of your parent when you're a child.

19:48.812 --> 19:51.934
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it changes everything.

19:52.294 --> 19:55.456
[SPEAKER_00]: So that should be on the ace list and for some reason it is.

19:55.476 --> 19:55.957
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree.

19:56.737 --> 20:12.528
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree with you that sexual and physical and emotional abuse are often at the forefront, because they lay a base where if other terrible things happen to you, you have no one to turn to.

20:13.600 --> 20:37.770
[SPEAKER_00]: You have, you know, you're already feeling hurt or broken and, you know, unprotected and then something else happens and you have to find some resource within yourself, which is for children hard to do, although as you lived in your own life, you find a way, even if it's a negative way.

20:39.300 --> 20:48.087
[SPEAKER_00]: like a gang to be your new family, you know, and they take you into some other risky situations, but at least you feel loved.

20:50.409 --> 20:58.235
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's another thing I would say is that so many people just longed for the love of their parent.

21:00.917 --> 21:07.883
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, did not have the experience that we all wish for every child to be cherished.

21:10.913 --> 21:14.154
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, that hits me hard.

21:15.074 --> 21:16.675
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's so true for me.

21:16.695 --> 21:18.095
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that's true for my siblings.

21:18.135 --> 21:21.717
[SPEAKER_01]: It's true for thousands of people I've worked with over the years.

21:22.217 --> 21:24.518
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's that thing of, do I matter?

21:25.158 --> 21:31.280
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, because none of us are born and we're like, hey, I don't remember the moment signing up for this human experience.

21:31.360 --> 21:34.121
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if it gets erased when you come out of the birth canal.

21:34.141 --> 21:36.882
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how that works, but I never had the moment.

21:36.902 --> 21:38.422
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, yeah, I'm ready for this.

21:38.462 --> 21:39.903
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you come into this world

21:41.265 --> 21:45.067
[SPEAKER_01]: then did you have these people who go, well, you know, you're lucky you're even alive.

21:45.107 --> 21:50.429
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, when you're 14 years old and you down a bottle of Adville, like I did, I'm like, I don't feel that.

21:50.889 --> 21:53.090
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, whatever this is, not for me.

21:53.691 --> 22:01.834
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember one of my, obviously not gonna say names, but one of my best friends of many growing up as a kid, he grew up in a household just like me.

22:02.575 --> 22:07.817
[SPEAKER_01]: And he got arrested for the first time when we were, I think, 13, you know.

22:07.837 --> 22:09.038
[SPEAKER_01]: That was huge too.

22:09.844 --> 22:11.766
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this is what I was getting to.

22:12.566 --> 22:13.967
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're like 13.

22:14.007 --> 22:14.888
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a little bit older.

22:15.208 --> 22:17.070
[SPEAKER_01]: We started smoking weed when we were 12.

22:17.110 --> 22:18.171
[SPEAKER_01]: We started getting drunk.

22:18.211 --> 22:19.131
[SPEAKER_01]: We were 13.

22:19.652 --> 22:22.014
[SPEAKER_01]: I just, you know, I'm six foot four, two, 20.

22:22.074 --> 22:23.475
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been an athlete most of my life.

22:23.515 --> 22:24.836
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just faster than him.

22:24.936 --> 22:28.279
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the only reason I never got arrested when I was a kid and that's just honest.

22:28.879 --> 22:33.260
[SPEAKER_01]: We were breaking into houses, we were stealing cars, we were holding people at gunpoint.

22:33.380 --> 22:36.380
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, we did so many insane things.

22:36.440 --> 22:37.120
[SPEAKER_01]: I look back at it.

22:37.140 --> 22:40.581
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't even feel like reality to me at almost 41 years old.

22:41.021 --> 22:42.641
[SPEAKER_01]: But at 13, we were surviving.

22:43.282 --> 22:44.982
[SPEAKER_01]: That was the first time he got arrested.

22:45.462 --> 22:46.682
[SPEAKER_01]: That would not be the last.

22:47.282 --> 22:48.863
[SPEAKER_01]: And he has spent more time in cars

22:57.459 --> 23:01.745
[SPEAKER_00]: I was going to say, actually, not exactly 13-dog middle school age.

23:03.147 --> 23:08.535
[SPEAKER_00]: And middle school itself, that for so many people was the turning point.

23:09.436 --> 23:12.621
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, where things went downhill from there.

23:13.690 --> 23:18.432
[SPEAKER_00]: kids who were doing okay and managing in elementary school.

23:19.272 --> 23:31.998
[SPEAKER_00]: When they hit 13, I think it's partly that there's so much going on inside you and your body, you know, with the changes of purity, which is a lot for every kid.

23:32.878 --> 23:41.101
[SPEAKER_00]: There's whatever you've seen already, and then there's who you find in middle school when

23:43.069 --> 24:00.395
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, feeling either isolated or, you know, in need of some kind of excitement or positive experience, you're treating yourself with drugs, maybe, and you, you know, or maybe you're very angry.

24:01.176 --> 24:12.520
[SPEAKER_00]: And it starts alienating the so-called, you know, good kids, or the pro-social kids and draws you to other kids who are angry.

24:13.174 --> 24:34.970
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like gang, fellow gang members, there's just a lot happening at that age when you're becoming a more of a social person, you're more out in the world, you have some greater freedom that that freedom can sometimes make you free to do things that are damaging to you.

24:36.571 --> 24:41.575
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just a time of great vulnerability and I think as a society,

24:42.503 --> 24:54.067
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, people, middle school is probably the hardest for teachers because kids are, you know, rocking and rolling around and don't know what to do with themselves.

24:54.668 --> 25:01.290
[SPEAKER_00]: But we haven't really, I think, addressed as a society, what do kids that age need?

25:01.790 --> 25:06.232
[SPEAKER_00]: I think too often we look at it as just the transition between

25:07.360 --> 25:13.507
[SPEAKER_00]: where I'm a school at high school and not as a period in itself that needs attention.

25:15.930 --> 25:16.270
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree.

25:16.851 --> 25:18.212
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that for me,

25:19.699 --> 25:24.262
[SPEAKER_01]: middle school is the most chaotic time because of all of the things that you just said.

25:24.282 --> 25:26.143
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't need to necessarily reiterate that.

25:26.183 --> 25:32.987
[SPEAKER_01]: But there were this just these moments of just being so lost because you can't even get a job.

25:33.027 --> 25:34.768
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not like you can be out of the house.

25:35.268 --> 25:40.772
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you don't have the opportunity to go out into the world and actually really have any authority because

25:46.255 --> 26:06.337
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I would have to, you know, one of the things that I see happen a lot is these kids who are in foster care, especially if they're in a bad home, and you know as well as I do like that is unfortunately a part of this and I I bore witness to that in a really difficult way as a kid, this is something I've shared on the show before some comfortable sharing it.

26:06.757 --> 26:14.163
[SPEAKER_01]: but my step grandmother, so my step father's mother, was a foster care giver.

26:14.183 --> 26:15.864
[SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't even call it care.

26:16.424 --> 26:23.310
[SPEAKER_01]: She was a foster check collector and she had this home full of children who every month she got paid.

26:23.810 --> 26:25.431
[SPEAKER_01]: And she did not take care of these children.

26:25.511 --> 26:28.312
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was unfortunately privy to experiences.

26:28.372 --> 26:30.633
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to share because they don't need to be shared here.

26:30.953 --> 26:35.054
[SPEAKER_01]: But they were really dark and really, really, really awful some.

26:35.614 --> 26:41.336
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that people feel, you know, hey, the foster care system is for the betterment of children.

26:41.356 --> 26:43.317
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know where it exists today.

26:43.357 --> 26:44.218
[SPEAKER_01]: This is 30 years ago.

26:45.598 --> 27:08.548
[SPEAKER_01]: but what role and and I don't mean to necessarily just because I know there's good foster parents still can be wrong because I know some of them and they're unbelievable people and I hope to become one one day but what role because it's obviously such a big part of your work what role does the foster care system whether it's the good or the bad play in this experience for people who are growing up in this kind of life?

27:15.200 --> 27:17.021
[SPEAKER_00]: about the foster care system.

27:17.162 --> 27:22.846
[SPEAKER_00]: I was never in it, although, you know, if I'd been born 30 years later, I guess I might have been.

27:23.706 --> 27:41.660
[SPEAKER_00]: But the, um, in the, in terms of the people that I interviewed for this book, I would say, like you, they had some very, very disturbing experiences while in foster care that contributed

27:43.607 --> 27:45.468
[SPEAKER_00]: entry into criminal activity.

27:46.049 --> 27:58.016
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Jerry, you know, abusive with holding food, you know, sexual abuse, they're really very dark, as you say.

27:58.977 --> 28:02.339
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the foster care system when it's functioning well,

28:03.490 --> 28:13.655
[SPEAKER_00]: would be a place of refuge for kids whose parents just can't take care of them for, you know, whatever their problems are.

28:14.115 --> 28:22.319
[SPEAKER_00]: But too often, you know, rather than helping the family get on its feet, kids might be removed.

28:23.060 --> 28:25.000
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a lot going on now.

28:25.081 --> 28:27.322
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank goodness in changing

28:28.350 --> 28:39.535
[SPEAKER_00]: the, you know, understanding among social workers and the system itself to distinguish between problems of poverty and problems of neglect.

28:40.115 --> 28:50.859
[SPEAKER_00]: Because often kids are removed when really the family needs resources and support, and it's not a question of willful neglect.

28:57.703 --> 29:12.846
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, helpful, life-saving uses of these systems, but too often they become systems that further, you know, oppressed people, discriminate against people.

29:13.346 --> 29:23.768
[SPEAKER_00]: And we know that, you know, both the juvenile justice and child welfare systems, kids of color, you know, are much more taken into the,

29:24.889 --> 29:27.070
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not news, you know what I mean?

29:27.511 --> 29:29.452
[SPEAKER_00]: And that tells you something right there.

29:29.472 --> 29:33.455
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it's disproportionate.

29:33.655 --> 29:50.987
[SPEAKER_01]: And, but what's really interesting, here's what I've seen in some of my own research and talking to people over the years, it's almost the financial bracket determines whether or not children commit crime almost more than anything else.

29:51.627 --> 30:02.973
[SPEAKER_01]: And, and I think that's so telling of a society where it's like, if you have, if you come from a poor parent, or poor parents, and poor family, you're probably going to prison, like, what the hell have we done?

30:03.294 --> 30:05.575
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's the thing that drives me the most crazy.

30:05.595 --> 30:14.039
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just looking at that and thinking to myself, it's not, and it's not just money, but it's the number one contributary factor where you go, okay.

30:14.260 --> 30:15.981
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, if you're in poverty, now guess what?

30:16.941 --> 30:27.827
[SPEAKER_01]: beer of food and scarcity, can't pay the light bill, constant stress, people under pressure make really, really horrible decisions where we're setting people up for failure.

30:28.407 --> 30:36.852
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when when you look at these youth crimes, I don't know, right, because I'm not deep into that world at this level.

30:37.792 --> 30:40.693
[SPEAKER_01]: What are the most common youth crimes that are being committed?

30:40.853 --> 30:44.035
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what are the reasons why these children are getting in trouble?

30:44.575 --> 30:48.036
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it, is it simply tactics for survival?

30:48.617 --> 30:50.838
[SPEAKER_01]: Or is there something more underlying?

30:50.858 --> 31:01.122
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think people think that children committing crime or these devious bad kids, again, something we talked about earlier, and I can't help but wonder how much of it is baked into survival.

31:02.652 --> 31:07.093
[SPEAKER_00]: I think as some of it is, you know, a sour, some of it starts there.

31:08.073 --> 31:15.676
[SPEAKER_00]: Kids having to steal food, then they want to find ways to have money, so they don't need to do that.

31:17.016 --> 31:23.658
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think sometimes it is that but often, because, you know, you, your development

31:32.852 --> 31:49.144
[SPEAKER_00]: gets dysregulated by these early difficult experiences and your executive functions haven't really fully developed yet because we know that part of your brain is later developing like into your 20s.

31:50.358 --> 31:55.101
[SPEAKER_00]: So kids, in their teenage years, they're using what they have.

31:55.461 --> 32:03.507
[SPEAKER_00]: And if what they have makes them think there's a threat around every corner, they're much more likely to have aggressive responses.

32:04.508 --> 32:14.694
[SPEAKER_00]: If they've gone numb because they have had too much stress, they might now recognize danger or predators where they exist.

32:15.395 --> 32:15.695
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean,

32:16.022 --> 32:19.623
[SPEAKER_00]: the problem is, and then they make poor decisions.

32:20.024 --> 32:28.827
[SPEAKER_00]: A moment comes where you can either, I mean, some of these people told me themselves, they knew when they were asked to join the gang.

32:29.827 --> 32:36.510
[SPEAKER_00]: If they stepped in, they would end in jail or maybe dead, and they stepped in.

32:38.020 --> 32:48.786
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, they had no awareness that there was a decision to be made, and there was nothing, there was no other voice in their hands saying, no, you're too important for that.

32:48.886 --> 32:49.567
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't do it.

32:52.048 --> 32:56.771
[SPEAKER_01]: What, what percentage of these youth end up in adult prison?

32:57.992 --> 32:58.312
[SPEAKER_00]: Many.

32:59.413 --> 32:59.733
[SPEAKER_00]: Many.

33:01.064 --> 33:07.086
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there are movements of foot now to reduce that or prevent that.

33:07.726 --> 33:21.631
[SPEAKER_00]: And there are laws that say, you know, in California, for example, if you're under 18, you should not be exposed by cider sound to adult inmates, but very often.

33:22.471 --> 33:27.794
[SPEAKER_00]: kids who are just 18, for example, end up in adult prison.

33:28.415 --> 33:36.540
[SPEAKER_00]: And many kids, unfortunately, depending on the crime they commit or the state they live in, get tried in adult court.

33:37.640 --> 33:39.161
[SPEAKER_00]: That's another big problem.

33:42.023 --> 33:42.283
[SPEAKER_01]: Why?

33:43.984 --> 33:44.925
[SPEAKER_01]: God, it's so great.

33:45.245 --> 33:48.407
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, you know, you can join the military at 18, but you can't have a beer.

33:52.074 --> 33:55.274
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we, as an adult?

33:56.525 --> 33:59.647
[SPEAKER_01]: I would never trust an 18 year old to make an adult decision.

34:00.028 --> 34:02.890
[SPEAKER_01]: Hell, I would even trust most 25 year olds to make an adult decision.

34:03.070 --> 34:03.690
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?

34:04.111 --> 34:09.735
[SPEAKER_01]: And we put so much pressure for people to be these outstanding perfect citizens.

34:10.756 --> 34:18.881
[SPEAKER_01]: And now obviously that's a stretched of a conversation between I stole cookies at the corner store to I stabbed a guy 50 times.

34:18.901 --> 34:20.763
[SPEAKER_01]: Those aren't the same things, right?

34:21.503 --> 34:23.565
[SPEAKER_01]: But they tend to come from the same places.

34:23.785 --> 34:28.608
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, at least that's what we're seeing in your research and conversations and my anecdotal experience.

34:29.169 --> 34:33.992
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's like, when you have that, the expectations kind of already set.

34:34.032 --> 34:42.017
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think a lot of these kids, because I was one of them, I fully anticipated being dead by the time I was 18.

34:42.618 --> 34:44.679
[SPEAKER_01]: I did not see a path forward at all.

34:45.320 --> 34:49.542
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was interesting because when I turned 18, maybe I was 19 somewhere in that window,

34:50.546 --> 34:53.468
[SPEAKER_01]: And someone asked me, what did you want to be when you grew up?

34:53.588 --> 34:55.570
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, I didn't think I was going to live this long.

34:56.211 --> 34:59.473
[SPEAKER_01]: Like whatever this is, I'm so unfamiliar with it.

35:00.094 --> 35:05.298
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember the time that the SWAT team kicked in the door of my house to rest my uncle.

35:05.778 --> 35:09.982
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the first time I went to go visit him in prison when I was only seven years old.

35:10.482 --> 35:21.007
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know if people know this, but as a visitor to a prison as a child, you are getting wanted down, you are getting pat down, you are getting finger-printed, you are going through the same process as the adults.

35:21.487 --> 35:23.248
[SPEAKER_01]: And Wendy, I remember distinctly.

35:23.328 --> 35:24.088
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a child.

35:24.148 --> 35:33.732
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm seven years old, walking into the visitation space with my uncle, my grandmother, my little brother, and my aunt, and sitting there, dead-sile.

35:33.752 --> 35:34.813
[SPEAKER_01]: I could even utter a word.

35:35.053 --> 35:36.813
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, I think my grandma made a horrible

35:40.535 --> 35:43.717
[SPEAKER_01]: And as I sat there, I was like, I'm never coming here.

35:44.157 --> 35:45.197
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not happened.

35:45.217 --> 35:51.781
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever this is, I was cognizant enough to realize I would die by cop before go to prison.

35:52.521 --> 35:58.564
[SPEAKER_01]: The irony of that is, you know, my little brother and that becoming a police officer, which I love and respect and he helped so many people.

35:59.185 --> 36:02.967
[SPEAKER_01]: But I just had all these thoughts were like, I'm refusing this, but,

36:03.847 --> 36:04.988
[SPEAKER_01]: what happens to people?

36:05.208 --> 36:09.069
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever we're exposed to, we tend to gravitate toward.

36:09.109 --> 36:17.953
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's interesting because one of the people in my book, in fact, recall visiting relatives in prison also as a child.

36:18.741 --> 36:20.621
[SPEAKER_00]: and thinking it looked like a castle.

36:21.562 --> 36:35.245
[SPEAKER_00]: And his family who were white supremacists, when he was visiting with the, with the Sunkel, the guy said to him, you know, we were all here, white's rule.

36:35.325 --> 36:45.667
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's, that's, and his mother had been in prison, his father had been in prison, have many of his relatives, and he thought, that's his future.

36:47.129 --> 36:49.050
[SPEAKER_00]: but he didn't reject it the way you did.

36:51.270 --> 36:54.851
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I only did because I'm a contrarian by nature.

36:55.411 --> 37:03.394
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm the kid that growing up, if you told me don't put your finger in the light socket, I'm putting my finger in my finger in the light because I'm like, don't tell me what to do.

37:03.834 --> 37:11.236
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I kind of like blocked against that part of it was I also wanted to prove people wrong and to prove myself right.

37:11.376 --> 37:14.497
[SPEAKER_01]: And that served me in many ways over the years.

37:15.137 --> 37:25.062
[SPEAKER_01]: But now I think that there's this pivotal turning point, right, because the recidivism rate really really starts to increase after the first incarceration.

37:25.302 --> 37:31.124
[SPEAKER_01]: And we know this, whether you're a juvenile offender or an adult offender, chances are you're going back.

37:31.605 --> 37:33.786
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's all that's a horrible reality.

37:34.386 --> 37:36.047
[SPEAKER_01]: And there is no rebe.

37:36.927 --> 37:37.427
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me phrase this.

37:37.747 --> 37:40.488
[SPEAKER_01]: Very little rehabilitation and prism.

37:41.068 --> 37:42.169
[SPEAKER_01]: You're you're set up.

37:42.309 --> 37:44.509
[SPEAKER_01]: It is it is the new day slavery.

37:45.090 --> 37:54.032
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think anyone who argues against that isn't well enough informed to understand that, you know, jackets and clothings and shoes and license plates are made in prison.

37:54.192 --> 37:54.512
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

37:54.612 --> 37:56.673
[SPEAKER_01]: It's effective and entered servitude and labor.

37:57.568 --> 37:58.549
[SPEAKER_00]: that I will.

37:59.209 --> 37:59.889
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, sorry.

38:00.390 --> 38:07.554
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I was going to ask you well, what do we do to help these people to walk through serve their time and come out and be citizens of the world?

38:07.794 --> 38:17.400
[SPEAKER_00]: That's that is what I wanted to say is that I mean obviously the people I spoke to were a self-selected group of people.

38:17.440 --> 38:22.343
[SPEAKER_00]: In other words, someone posted a request for me on a site that former

38:22.883 --> 38:30.125
[SPEAKER_00]: formerly incarcerated people visit saying I was interested in interviewing people about their early childhood.

38:31.085 --> 38:40.187
[SPEAKER_00]: And the people who responded almost all of them are now living and who served long sentences.

38:41.488 --> 38:44.728
[SPEAKER_00]: They were because they committed serious crimes, almost all of them.

38:45.428 --> 38:50.570
[SPEAKER_00]: They are now living lives like you are in the sense of giving back.

38:53.383 --> 39:06.250
[SPEAKER_00]: It's remarkable, and they talk about, in the book, they talk about how they came to feel accountable and to want to do something positive in the world.

39:07.271 --> 39:14.134
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, so I guess, you know, my sample of people was a little different.

39:14.154 --> 39:20.858
[SPEAKER_00]: They weren't recidivists, because they had long sentences, both of which they had to serve, and by the time,

39:21.403 --> 39:22.744
[SPEAKER_00]: They came out of prison.

39:23.264 --> 39:29.407
[SPEAKER_00]: They had done a lot of work within themselves and in some of the self-help groups in prison.

39:30.147 --> 39:39.071
[SPEAKER_00]: And they are now engaged in positive activities in the world, which is fantastic.

39:39.871 --> 39:41.252
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's absolutely amazing.

39:42.422 --> 39:45.045
[SPEAKER_01]: and makes me so happy for them and thrilled.

39:45.886 --> 39:54.637
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I guess part of that question is again, my own personal experience just watching people in my life go back again and again, and again.

39:54.657 --> 39:59.583
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that takes us to the question of unresolved trauma.

40:00.239 --> 40:00.419
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

40:00.800 --> 40:01.940
[SPEAKER_01]: That's exactly.

40:01.960 --> 40:10.167
[SPEAKER_01]: My next question for you was, you know, the subtitle of the book is what we're misunderstanding about child or trauma, youth, crime and the path to healing.

40:10.928 --> 40:12.229
[SPEAKER_01]: What is the path to healing?

40:12.489 --> 40:15.972
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how do we, what is the thing that we need to start tapping you here?

40:16.012 --> 40:18.514
[SPEAKER_00]: The path goes through your trauma.

40:19.788 --> 40:22.509
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think you cannot do that alone.

40:22.529 --> 40:28.011
[SPEAKER_00]: Or it's the very rare person who could do that by themselves.

40:28.871 --> 40:41.015
[SPEAKER_00]: I think most people really need someone to bear witness while they revisit and give voice to what's happened to them.

40:42.258 --> 41:02.022
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's the beginning of unburdening yourself of the trauma you're carrying in your body, in your feelings, in your mind, and it's exerting pressure on you that you don't even know, you know, it's become so much a part of how you're managing life.

41:03.222 --> 41:07.043
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think, you know, part of it is having someone

41:08.026 --> 41:22.015
[SPEAKER_00]: to bear witness and the opportunity to really go back to those places so that you can let them go, which I don't think you can without revisiting them.

41:23.276 --> 41:31.141
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's how that has to happen before someone becomes accountable for their own the harms they've done.

41:32.174 --> 41:41.702
[SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to, you know, understand the harm you've done to someone else until you understand the harm that was done to you.

41:44.805 --> 41:49.209
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, that's so true and it's so difficult because that that's.

41:52.134 --> 42:04.050
[SPEAKER_01]: That sense of vulnerability required within the space of always having to protect oneself is like telling me to go and make a diamond out of my own damn bare hands.

42:05.226 --> 42:10.408
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's just one of the most unbelievably difficult things that anyone could ever do.

42:11.188 --> 42:18.830
[SPEAKER_01]: And especially in that environment, I couldn't even imagine trying to do it in that environment, but also your kind about the point I would imagine or it's like, well, what choice do you have?

42:19.310 --> 42:19.470
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?

42:19.510 --> 42:22.571
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like figure this out or die effectively.

42:23.232 --> 42:29.033
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's kind of where I landed at 26 when I had this complete rock bottom and had destroyed my life.

42:29.794 --> 42:30.534
[SPEAKER_01]: Was there any

42:32.395 --> 42:38.057
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess, you know, my thought then goes to, well, is it group therapy, is it individual therapy, is it all the above?

42:38.137 --> 42:39.657
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it raky or healing?

42:39.717 --> 42:40.537
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it meditation?

42:40.557 --> 42:41.158
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it journaling?

42:41.198 --> 42:42.118
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it gratitude?

42:42.558 --> 42:48.119
[SPEAKER_01]: Were there any kind of individualistic or, like, as a bell curve?

42:48.440 --> 42:53.661
[SPEAKER_01]: What were some of the modalities that these people had the most impact in results from?

43:02.145 --> 43:05.347
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there was more self-help groups.

43:05.427 --> 43:07.369
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say the therapy groups.

43:07.469 --> 43:20.478
[SPEAKER_00]: In other words, sitting down with other people who you came to trust and mutually sharing difficult experiences, one person

43:22.013 --> 43:41.140
[SPEAKER_00]: was able to kind of, who lost his father at an early age, he was able to, you know, kind of come to terms with that in a self-help group in prison, but really until he was, I mean, many years later, I think 30 years after the fact,

43:41.703 --> 43:50.070
[SPEAKER_00]: He finally could tell another inmate about his sexual abuse that he'd been abused.

43:50.510 --> 43:55.234
[SPEAKER_00]: He could not even with that larger group, he could not go there.

43:56.134 --> 44:00.538
[SPEAKER_00]: It was in the presence of one person that he felt safe with.

44:01.447 --> 44:04.969
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that feeling of safety is in necessity.

44:05.510 --> 44:09.012
[SPEAKER_00]: You can get it in a group sometimes or individually.

44:10.113 --> 44:15.276
[SPEAKER_00]: One person interestingly started that road through reading.

44:15.876 --> 44:19.339
[SPEAKER_00]: He, in prison, you know, because that's one thing you can do.

44:20.499 --> 44:27.644
[SPEAKER_00]: And he started reading about the lives of the Saints, and he was very inspired by

44:28.875 --> 44:49.011
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm getting the name of the saint, but the person who founded the Jesuits, who, you know, had this legacy of really helping other people, and he, the idea of living a meaningful life was the thing that opened him up to starting to look at himself.

44:49.911 --> 44:53.274
[SPEAKER_00]: In another case, somebody had a letter from

44:54.883 --> 45:07.629
[SPEAKER_00]: of childhood friend of his who had died, and she talked about her feelings about it, and he became open to the idea of thinking about the families of the people he had guilt.

45:08.970 --> 45:20.255
[SPEAKER_00]: For the first time, really, you know, they were because I think for a lot of people when they're defending against their own traumatic experience, their victims are not real to them.

45:21.823 --> 45:40.010
[SPEAKER_00]: their threats or their kind of just the obstacles to something they want, but, you know, if people can understand how they were vulnerable and hurt, they begin to be able to see how they've hurt others.

45:41.491 --> 45:41.751
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

45:42.251 --> 45:44.792
[SPEAKER_01]: And as you were saying that I had this thought about something

45:48.208 --> 45:52.650
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'd written, if you're wearing armor, you're always going to be ready to fight.

45:53.650 --> 45:54.151
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

45:54.491 --> 45:55.131
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

45:56.872 --> 45:58.332
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think about that a lot.

45:58.653 --> 46:07.336
[SPEAKER_01]: And letting that down, letting that guard down, the willingness to be seen, to be vulnerable, and all you've ever had to know is self-protection.

46:08.237 --> 46:11.778
[SPEAKER_01]: That is the scariest part of healing, in my opinion.

46:12.078 --> 46:13.239
[SPEAKER_01]: That ain't that fair.

46:13.299 --> 46:13.539
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

46:14.186 --> 46:25.333
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and to be seen because guess what in the, in the vulnerability of an innocence, right, because especially you're talking about people who experience the worst of the worst that children could ever go through.

46:25.774 --> 46:28.415
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've always thought this you show me somebody in prison.

46:28.455 --> 46:34.739
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll show you somebody with a horrible childhood, generally speaking, right, you of course, there's outliers is always an outlier.

46:35.880 --> 46:48.925
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think about that, like how do you take this wounded hurt child who, in some capacity, has always been about protecting themselves and then turn them into this integrated, healed human.

46:49.486 --> 46:54.628
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not that you, like, when you'll, I'll never forget some of the most horrific things I've done.

46:54.768 --> 46:57.069
[SPEAKER_01]: Many of which should probably have me in prison.

46:57.109 --> 46:59.010
[SPEAKER_01]: I've said that on this show many times.

46:59.630 --> 47:04.292
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and like, I, I sit in that and I go, well, I've just had to forgive myself.

47:05.067 --> 47:07.870
[SPEAKER_01]: And some days that's easy, and some days it's fucking not.

47:08.371 --> 47:10.914
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is the reality of the human experience.

47:11.735 --> 47:16.480
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think the one thing I've always kind of had is just this I do.

47:16.500 --> 47:22.868
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to call it hopefulness, but just feeling like, man, if I'm alive, I can do something differently.

47:23.568 --> 47:42.301
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm wondering what were some of the aha moments for the people that you interviewed and then the people that you see have had this success, what were in the healing journey, what was their their awakening and the dropping of the armor, what was the thing outside of the community, but within themselves.

47:42.941 --> 47:47.024
[SPEAKER_01]: What was the decision that they made that transformed them?

47:47.084 --> 47:53.709
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm going to tell you right now, some of the people listening, they need to make that same decision, but they're not in prison.

47:53.829 --> 48:02.356
[SPEAKER_01]: They're here and not work, or they're at the gym right now, or they're in the car on the road trip, and they know that something inside of them, they need to remove the armor.

48:02.776 --> 48:11.903
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm wondering if we could lead by example here, anything that you saw or have experienced or bear witness to were those moments for these people.

48:13.270 --> 48:22.661
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think for some of them, the beginning was really, what you mentioned, having some kind of hope.

48:23.522 --> 48:29.149
[SPEAKER_00]: And most of them, when they went into prison with these very long, if not life sentences,

48:30.306 --> 48:31.087
[SPEAKER_00]: had no hope.

48:31.787 --> 48:38.653
[SPEAKER_00]: But because the California, the many of them were in California, because that's where I am.

48:39.734 --> 48:58.229
[SPEAKER_00]: California passed laws that allow for something called juvenile offender parole hearings, where if you were a juvenile at the time of your crime, the circumstances of your life and your youth can be taken into account in your sentencing.

48:59.399 --> 49:05.943
[SPEAKER_00]: And you might be resentenced if you've served 25 years already, or 20 years already.

49:06.864 --> 49:10.866
[SPEAKER_00]: That was the first time that hope of a life outside prison.

49:11.607 --> 49:23.954
[SPEAKER_00]: And once you have hoped, like you said, it makes you start thinking about, well, what, what would I do if I had that freedom again?

49:25.028 --> 49:27.590
[SPEAKER_00]: what kind of life could I lead?

49:27.690 --> 49:30.933
[SPEAKER_00]: What could I do that would be positive?

49:31.594 --> 49:40.881
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that was the opening for some people, but I really not to just pound on the point, but I do think the

49:43.490 --> 49:48.694
[SPEAKER_00]: we're coming to terms with what had happened in their own lives early on.

49:49.294 --> 50:02.384
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think that is the door that has to open in order to be able to walk through to a different self-presentation and self-feely.

50:02.965 --> 50:09.430
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you say, if you're tied up and protecting yourself, you cannot feel

50:10.884 --> 50:13.847
[SPEAKER_00]: and relate to another person in an open way.

50:16.270 --> 50:21.756
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you have there has to be room and there has to be some identification.

50:22.477 --> 50:23.418
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the other thing.

50:23.858 --> 50:30.225
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, when you're furious and hurt, you're not identifying with the other person.

50:33.119 --> 50:33.359
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

50:33.980 --> 50:34.200
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

50:34.260 --> 50:35.901
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's that's all really powerful.

50:35.962 --> 50:42.387
[SPEAKER_01]: And my hope is that people that are listening will understand and recognize that they have the ability to do that too.

50:42.567 --> 50:43.228
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

50:43.948 --> 50:44.829
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything does.

50:44.889 --> 51:00.062
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if I think if my book shows anything, it shows how people who, you know, committed really some terrible crimes had just unthinkable things done to them when they were

51:01.739 --> 51:17.906
[SPEAKER_00]: came through it, and are now, you know, leading inspiration of why, I mean, what could be a better testament to the possibility for people who've experienced the worst kind of pain to have a different life?

51:18.886 --> 51:21.407
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that's the path of healing.

51:21.707 --> 51:26.649
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, when it's not an easy path, but it's a path, it's like, you know,

51:32.060 --> 51:45.946
[SPEAKER_00]: trauma as timeless that is you think you've done it, done the work and something happens and it peels back another layer and you're, you know, feeling all these terrible things.

51:46.846 --> 51:50.207
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's just unraddling you again.

51:50.227 --> 51:53.769
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't, it's like an onion, right?

51:54.149 --> 51:59.371
[SPEAKER_00]: You, there are layers to it and sometimes just hearing some music.

52:00.159 --> 52:03.582
[SPEAKER_00]: or smelling something can take you back.

52:04.843 --> 52:08.486
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have to kind of be prepared that it's not one and done.

52:09.788 --> 52:12.630
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, it's the rest of your life thing.

52:13.190 --> 52:24.520
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's what's really, I mean, it's hard because you hear that in this context of conversations about children and prison life sentences, like kind of, I mean,

52:25.341 --> 52:32.863
[SPEAKER_01]: This might be a crass way to phrase it, but trauma's kind of a life sentence and you get to choose what you do with how you spend that time.

52:33.623 --> 52:37.364
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's so many healing modalities that we can use in our journey.

52:37.384 --> 52:41.325
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'll give you a great example because you're right that triggering it's going to happen.

52:41.465 --> 52:42.925
[SPEAKER_01]: Just oh my god, it's so funny.

52:42.945 --> 52:50.367
[SPEAKER_01]: So that just last night, I was with a couple group of guys and one of the guys had mentioned my stepfather's name.

52:50.407 --> 52:52.188
[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't have my stepfather's just the name.

52:53.013 --> 52:57.377
[SPEAKER_01]: when I was younger, oh, Wendy, I'm off the rails, just hearing the name.

52:57.978 --> 53:08.488
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was just, I'd go flush red, I'd shut down, I'd turn into fighter flight mode, ringing in my ears completely triggered a general system all over the place.

53:09.249 --> 53:11.972
[SPEAKER_01]: And now, and it does not impact me at all.

53:13.023 --> 53:29.457
[SPEAKER_01]: because of the work and that's something that back in the day would just I can't even explain some of the things that happened in my life because of that and so those triggers are already always going to be there and I'm sorry that they're there and it breaks my heart and I wish that wasn't true.

53:29.937 --> 53:33.700
[SPEAKER_01]: But, you've got a responsibility to yourself to do something about it.

53:34.180 --> 53:39.004
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that if you do, because if these people can do it, you can too.

53:39.484 --> 53:48.330
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why I wanted to interview you, because I read these stories in these books, and this book, and I had this conversation with you, and I was just like, I guess me hope.

53:49.151 --> 53:50.952
[SPEAKER_01]: It just gives me hope for everybody.

53:51.032 --> 53:52.994
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you can still transform it.

53:55.444 --> 53:56.224
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love that.

53:56.745 --> 54:02.788
[SPEAKER_01]: Before I ask you my last question, where can everyone find you learn more about the book and especially grab a copy?

54:02.808 --> 54:03.628
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a copy here.

54:04.129 --> 54:05.589
[SPEAKER_01]: Beautiful, amazing book.

54:06.170 --> 54:08.851
[SPEAKER_01]: But where can everyone grab a copy of before their crimes?

54:09.111 --> 54:14.514
[SPEAKER_00]: So they can check out my website, WendyBSmithEHD.net.

54:15.474 --> 54:22.198
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's available at Amazon or Barnes and Noble, or wherever you like to get your book.

54:23.523 --> 54:25.284
[SPEAKER_01]: and the audiobook is unbelievable.

54:25.365 --> 54:27.306
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you speak about the audiobook for a moment, please?

54:27.326 --> 54:28.607
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm not going to do it justice.

54:29.868 --> 54:39.316
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the audiobook to me, I mean, not that I've listened to that many, because I'm a big actual book reader sort of old school.

54:39.396 --> 54:44.580
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think this audiobook was unusually well done, because

54:45.279 --> 55:02.707
[SPEAKER_00]: the publishers have been around the narrator, which is kind of my voice to have one person doing it, and they got other people to read the actual stories that the people I interviewed tell about their childhoods and their crimes.

55:02.807 --> 55:09.991
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's really great in having a real representative a range of voices.

55:10.898 --> 55:11.779
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

55:11.799 --> 55:21.945
[SPEAKER_01]: And for me, it just humanized so much of it and just this different way that as I was consuming, I just was like, this is unbelievable, right?

55:21.965 --> 55:29.669
[SPEAKER_01]: And so guys, please check out think unbrokenpodcast.com for all that and more in the show notes for Wendy's episode.

55:30.070 --> 55:31.851
[SPEAKER_01]: Grab a copy of this book.

55:32.011 --> 55:33.472
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's one of those things too that

55:34.032 --> 55:41.315
[SPEAKER_01]: You will be shocked when you read it, how much you feel like you may relate because the reality is when you know this we're on the childhood trauma healing show.

55:41.335 --> 55:43.596
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's what thanking Brokeens all about.

55:43.696 --> 55:46.758
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if these people can do it, my friends, you can too.

55:47.538 --> 55:52.060
[SPEAKER_01]: My last question for you, what does it mean to you to be unbroken?

55:55.021 --> 56:00.384
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I have to say, I don't really ever think of people as broken.

56:01.226 --> 56:03.368
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's kind of where I have to start.

56:03.849 --> 56:19.443
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think the idea of unbroken to me is that hopeful idea of finding your true self facing what happened to you and really knowing that it happened to you.

56:19.463 --> 56:21.045
[SPEAKER_00]: It isn't you.

56:22.162 --> 56:39.715
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's, you know, a task for all of us who have experienced trauma is to be able to see that, you know, we experience something that someone or something else was doing to us.

56:40.495 --> 56:46.640
[SPEAKER_00]: And that it is not part of our essential being because when it happens to you when you're young,

56:47.623 --> 56:49.124
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't know it's not you.

56:49.544 --> 56:53.467
[SPEAKER_00]: You think the badness that you're experiencing is part of you.

56:54.148 --> 57:10.399
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think the externalizing that and being able to see yourself as the complicated, vulnerable hurt, but also strong person you are is being unbroken.

57:12.660 --> 57:13.960
[SPEAKER_01]: very, very beautifully said.

57:14.380 --> 57:18.761
[SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate you so much for being here and for writing this very impactful book.

57:19.282 --> 57:26.823
[SPEAKER_01]: It's one that I honestly I wish I could have put the hands of many friends and family members as I was a kid and I appreciate your time and your energy.

57:27.423 --> 57:38.226
[SPEAKER_01]: Guys, if you got any value out of today's episode, make sure you go to Think Unbroken Podcasts.com to learn more about Wendy and her amazing works and this amazing book before their crimes.

57:38.386 --> 57:39.326
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a book that I

57:42.427 --> 57:48.490
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you are somebody in your life needs more support, you might want to go and research windy and learn more.

57:49.191 --> 57:54.033
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, if today's episode brought you any value, share it with a friend someone in your life might need this.

57:54.093 --> 58:03.078
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe their social worker, foster care worker or prism worker, and they need the hope that the work that they're doing actually matters, and that could be a gift that you give them.

58:03.758 --> 58:07.900
[SPEAKER_01]: That said, thank you for being here, take care of yourselves, take care of each other,

58:11.064 --> 58:12.085
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you Michael.

58:12.534 --> 58:13.003
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll see you.